If I may provide a brief comment and request for clarification here on this approach to understanding Colossians.
Clarification : If you understand Christ as a plan in God's mind prior to creation, are you taking "firstborn" to mean "creation sequence" instead of "preeminance" ?
Comment: You are right to assume that "Paul had a Jewish mind. He would have thought, reasoned and expressed himself as a Jew would". However, we need to keep in mind also that Paul does differ from the other learned Jews of his days when it comes to the Messiah. To assume that his understanding of the Messiah to be similiar to that of Rabbi Schoche seems to me to be forcing a certain view that Paul may not have in mind of, and to use that to interpret Colossians and Hebrews does not come across as helpful.
Kean: I'm not sure if I get you correctly over the use of the term "firstborn" in Col 1:15. Let me first point out that, going by the two articles cited above, there's a dimension in Jewish thinking that we in our English-speaking world are not accustomed to. Over the recent months, I've learnt, from other sources (I don't have references off-hand), that in Jewish thinking, whatever is predestined in God's plan for the future is viewed as if it already exists in heaven. As such, I'm not surprised at the use of the term "firstborn" in this case: it is consistent with the Judaistic view that the Messiah, and the predestined Messianic last-days, were already "born" in heaven right from the beginning, predestined by YHWH for the end. While this does not agree well with M.Wachtel's exegesis from the "pre-eminence" perspective, which I emailed you a couple of months ago, it does open my eyes to a dimension of "firstborn" as employed in Jewish thinking which I'm only beginning to understand.
Kean: Regarding Paul's understanding of the Messiah, I agree that he did differ from his contemporaries, but only as far as the recognition of prophecies fulfilled in Yeshua as the Messiah is concerned. We cannot find any NT record that Paul argued nor debated with the Judaizers of his days concerning how the long-awaited Messiah was to be understood. On the contrary, it is well known that Paul had occasionally written in typical Jewish "midrash" style e.g. in Rom.3:10ff, 1 Cor. 10:4 etc. Midrash is a Jewish approach to exegesis, which mainly focuses on deep meanings and comparative investigation of Biblical texts. Some midrash interpretations of the OT are very figurative and should not be taken literally. And particularly in my post today, I have pointed out the remarkable similarity in thinking in the two articles cited, compared to Paul's words in Heb 1:2 and Col 1:15. Please bear in mind that R.Schochet is a non-Christian. He would not agree with Paul that Jesus is Messiah, or that the Messiah has come. This makes the parallel between the expressions "firstborn" and "preconceived" or "precede" all the more noteworthy.
The hyperlinks given in my post are not underlined and may not be obvious, so here are the links to the sites mentioned:
(1) A Monotheistic Messianic Jewish site http://www.shomeryisrael.org/index.shtm
(2) An orthodox Jewish site, article on the Messiah: http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101679/jewish/The-Personality-of-Mashiach.htm
Hi, I just came across another page: this one is by a Messianic Jew who "once held to the belief that Yahshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) is God; however, he is now irrevocably convinced that such is NOT the case "
Harold, you have given a fair representation of the Jewish mind concerning the Messiah. The Jews of Jesus day certainly were looking for the Messiah, they just, on the whole, did not recognize Him when He came.
All the scriptures which either prophecy of or allude to the concept that Jesus pre-existed, when used to promote such a concept are misaligned in order to give substantiation to such a concept. To have Jesus as a pre-existent entity, co-existent with God, the Father, equal in power and authority is an indulgence not worthy of a serious student of the scripture. In order to comprehend the height, depth and breadth of this thing, we must view such verses as pertaining to the fore-ordination and pre-determination of the Great Architect of Creation, the Almighty. He, being all powerful and all wise, in His Wisdom knew what He desired to be the outcome of His Creation, and knew how to accomplish it.
In His ability to plan and create according to all He planned, God determined His purpose, how to accomplish His purpose, and saw all He had purposed and laid it all out for us to see, long before it was accomplished, delivered to us by the words of His Holy Prophets.
Those who know the words of the prophets understand by the revelations of the Apostles the plan and means by which God so determined and accomplished His Great Plan spoken in the Beginning when on the 6th Day God said, "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness, and let them have dominion..."
When God raised Jesus from the dead and made that man both Lord and Christ, the first leg of His Plan was accomplished. For that man became by resurrection power, the Firstborn of the Almighty. Now we wait for them that believe in God by Jesus Christ to likewise be born from the dead, fulfilling the phrase, "And let THEM have dominion." We see the fulfillment of this Plan in Revelations 5 when they proclaim, "and we shall reign on earth with him."
If I may provide a brief comment and request for clarification here on this approach to understanding Colossians.
ReplyDeleteClarification : If you understand Christ as a plan in God's mind prior to creation, are you taking "firstborn" to mean "creation sequence" instead of "preeminance" ?
Comment: You are right to assume that "Paul had a Jewish mind. He would have thought, reasoned and expressed himself as a Jew would". However, we need to keep in mind also that Paul does differ from the other learned Jews of his days when it comes to the Messiah. To assume that his understanding of the Messiah to be similiar to that of Rabbi Schoche seems to me to be forcing a certain view that Paul may not have in mind of, and to use that to interpret Colossians and Hebrews does not come across as helpful.
Kean: I'm not sure if I get you correctly over the use of the term "firstborn" in Col 1:15. Let me first point out that, going by the two articles cited above, there's a dimension in Jewish thinking that we in our English-speaking world are not accustomed to. Over the recent months, I've learnt, from other sources (I don't have references off-hand), that in Jewish thinking, whatever is predestined in God's plan for the future is viewed as if it already exists in heaven. As such, I'm not surprised at the use of the term "firstborn" in this case: it is consistent with the Judaistic view that the Messiah, and the predestined Messianic last-days, were already "born" in heaven right from the beginning, predestined by YHWH for the end. While this does not agree well with M.Wachtel's exegesis from the "pre-eminence" perspective,
ReplyDeletewhich I emailed you a couple of months ago, it does open my eyes to a dimension of "firstborn" as employed in Jewish thinking which I'm only beginning to understand.
Kean: Regarding Paul's understanding of the Messiah, I agree that he did differ from his contemporaries, but only as far as the recognition of prophecies fulfilled in Yeshua as the Messiah is concerned. We cannot find any NT record that Paul argued nor debated with the Judaizers of his days concerning how the long-awaited Messiah was to be understood. On the contrary, it is well known that Paul had occasionally written in typical Jewish "midrash" style e.g. in Rom.3:10ff, 1 Cor. 10:4 etc. Midrash is a Jewish approach to exegesis, which mainly focuses on deep meanings and comparative investigation of Biblical texts. Some midrash interpretations of the OT are very figurative and should not be taken literally. And particularly in my post today, I have pointed out the remarkable similarity in thinking in the two articles cited, compared to Paul's words in Heb 1:2 and Col 1:15. Please bear in mind that R.Schochet is a non-Christian. He would not agree with Paul that Jesus is Messiah, or that the Messiah has come. This makes the parallel between the expressions "firstborn" and "preconceived" or "precede" all the more noteworthy.
ReplyDeleteThe hyperlinks given in my post are not underlined and may not be obvious, so here are the links to the sites mentioned:
ReplyDelete(1) A Monotheistic Messianic Jewish site
http://www.shomeryisrael.org/index.shtm
(2) An orthodox Jewish site, article on the Messiah:
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/101679/jewish/The-Personality-of-Mashiach.htm
Hi, I just came across another page: this one is by a Messianic Jew who "once held to the belief that Yahshua the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) is God; however, he is now irrevocably convinced that such is NOT the case "
ReplyDeletehttp://www.torahofmessiah.com/adonaiechad.htm
Harold, you have given a fair representation of the Jewish mind concerning the Messiah. The Jews of Jesus day certainly were looking for the Messiah, they just, on the whole, did not recognize Him when He came.
ReplyDeleteAll the scriptures which either prophecy of or allude to the concept that Jesus pre-existed, when used to promote such a concept are misaligned in order to give substantiation to such a concept. To have Jesus as a pre-existent entity, co-existent with God, the Father, equal in power and authority is an indulgence not worthy of a serious student of the scripture. In order to comprehend the height, depth and breadth of this thing, we must view such verses as pertaining to the fore-ordination and pre-determination of the Great Architect of Creation, the Almighty. He, being all powerful and all wise, in His Wisdom knew what He desired to be the outcome of His Creation, and knew how to accomplish it.
In His ability to plan and create according to all He planned, God determined His purpose, how to accomplish His purpose, and saw all He had purposed and laid it all out for us to see, long before it was accomplished, delivered to us by the words of His Holy Prophets.
Those who know the words of the prophets understand by the revelations of the Apostles the plan and means by which God so determined and accomplished His Great Plan spoken in the Beginning when on the 6th Day God said, "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness, and let them have dominion..."
When God raised Jesus from the dead and made that man both Lord and Christ, the first leg of His Plan was accomplished. For that man became by resurrection power, the Firstborn of the Almighty. Now we wait for them that believe in God by Jesus Christ to likewise be born from the dead, fulfilling the phrase, "And let THEM have dominion." We see the fulfillment of this Plan in Revelations 5 when they proclaim, "and we shall reign on earth with him."
Thank you Bill, for explaining your insight into the eternal plan of God.
Delete